Ten surprises from the 2017 season

Ten things that happened this past season that I did not see coming. No particular order because I’m lazy.

1. Tom Schreiber. Would he be a very good player? Probably. Would he score a bunch of goals? Probably. Would he lead the Rock in scoring and finish in the top 10 in the league? Well, that’s overly optimistic, don’t you think?

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Review of the new NLL.com

The NLL unveiled its new web site last week. We talked about it on the most recent episode of Addicted to Lacrosse, and of course I’ve spent some time perusing it this week. Here are some thoughts on the pros and cons of the new site.


It looks great. The menus and the team standings thing on the right are slick. The images and overall look of the page are professional.

I like how the black-and-white team logos at the top are colourized when you hover over them.

Clicking on the team logos at the top gives you a page summarizing that team – record, goals for and against, division rank, news stories, roster, schedule, and staff (GM and head coach). There are links to the team’s web site and social media accounts, and links for buying ticket and merch. The NLL logo at the very top changes colour depending on the team you pick – nice touch.

Each of the news stories on the front page has a little icon in the corner telling you whether it’s a video or text.

The pages I use to download game stats into my database (nll_stats.stats.pointstreak.com/boxscore.html) have not changed, which means I don’t need to rewrite the script I use to fetch and parse them. This is a big deal for me personally, though I imagine nobody else cares. But for myself, thanks NLL!

When you have a table of stats and click on a column heading, it re-sorts the list in place with Javascript rather than having to reload the page. Clicking it a second time reverses the search.



The list of games on the bottom of the main page scrolls left and right similar to the one on the old site but there’s no scroll bar or link to a particular week. To go back or ahead a month or two, you have to use the arrows on the left and right and just keep clicking until you get there. To get from the end of the season (where we are now) to the beginning takes 25 clicks. Sure, you can click on the Schedule menu. then select Week 1 from the WEEK dropdown and click Apply, but that’s still three clicks. Used to be one click for any week of the season.

On this same list, games in progress are listed as “Live” with no indication of what quarter.

Historical stats are gone. Career stats seem to begin no earlier than 2005. If a player retired before 2005, he’s just not anywhere.

Finding historical players is a bit of a pain. To find John Tavares, for example, I have to go to the Players menu, select a season he played in, select Forward, and select Bandits (the latter two are optional but filter things much more quickly). If I want to find a historical player but I don’t remember what years he played or what teams he played for, it could take a long time to find him.

When listing players, there’s no search field. If I want to find Mark Matthews, for example, I have to either scroll to the end, wait for the next page to load, then continue repeating that until his name shows up (this takes ten iterations), or I can filter with position and team. But if I could just type “Matth<enter>”, that would be faster. Even better if the ‘<enter>’ was optional.

There are little progress bars on many images, showing you how long until the image changes to the next one in the “slideshow”. If something is actually loading, this is helpful but if it’s just a timer before the image changes, it’s not necessary.

The game recap page has a few issues:

  • The times for goals, shots, turnovers, etc. are backwards, telling you how much time is left in the quarter rather than how much time has elapsed. The first face-off in Q1 is listed as 15:00 rather than 0:00.
  • The turnovers and caused turnovers don’t have a name associated with them.
  • The times are also incorrect in some cases – in Toronto’s 12-5 win over Rochester, we have Kyle Jackson and Brodie Merrill taking a shot on net and Billy Hostrawser and Merrill picking up loose balls all at 11:55 of the second quarter.
  • When a goal is scored, no shot on goal is listed corresponding to that goal.
  • The page is drawn as a small window above the main window but escape doesn’t close it.
  • This also makes scrolling weird – using the mouse wheel scrolls the list in the window until you hit the top or bottom of the list, then it scrolls the main page behind the window.
  • The tooltips for the twitter and star icons at the top say “Preferred_1” and “Preferred_2”.
  • Clicking “Return to scoreboard” takes you right off the NLL page, over to stats.pointstreak.com.
  • When trying to look at a game recap while the game is going on, the page refreshes itself automatically, changing pages as it does. Very annoying if you’re trying to look at something other than the “Plays” view.

Really picky things

On the news page, the season filter is sorted ascending (i.e. most recent season at the bottom). Everywhere else it’s descending (i.e. most recent season at the top).

I go to the 2015 stats and click on John Tavares, it lists his age as 48, which is his current age, not the age he was in 2015. That’s easy to calculate but which date do you pick? Do you display the age he was at the beginning of the season or the end?

When I click on the search icon, I have to click on the text box that pops up before I can type anything. The text box should get focus automatically.

The font on the transactions page is big and ugly.

On the stats page it lists some team records, eg. goals for or against. For each record you see the top three teams along with, for some reason, their home arena. But the arena names are inconsistent. For the Bandits, it just says “KeyBank Center” but for the Rush it says “Sasktel Centre – Saskatoon”. From a quick Google search, there is only one SaskTel Centre. The Mammoth one says “Pepsi Center – NLL” and the Roughnecks says “Scotiabank Saddledome NLL”.

Do great players make great coaches?

In many sports, some players go on to become coaches once they hang up their skates, cleats, or whatever other footwear they happen to use. Sometimes these transitions work out well, other times they don’t. But one thing I’ve noticed over the years is that in the NHL, the really great players frequently don’t make great coaches, and great coaches were generally not great players. Wayne Gretzky is the obvious example of the former – arguably the greatest hockey player ever was at best a mediocre NHL coach. On the flipside, Don Cherry played a single game in the NHL. Pat Burns never did, nor did Scotty Bowman, Ken Hitchcock, John Tortorella, or many of the current NHL coaches. Patrick Roy is one counterexample – he’s the only one of the thirty current NHL head coaches who was a truly great player. Patrick Roy hasn’t coached in the NHL since last season. Not sure how I missed this.

It’s funny how different this situation is in lacrosse.

Think of two of the best NLL players ever: Gary Gait took the Mammoth to the championship in his first season as an NLL coach, and has been coaching women’s college lacrosse for many years. John Tavares has been an assistant coach of the Bandits for a year and a half and by all accounts is doing a great job.

Clark & Kelusky, with Veltman in the background

But the list of current and former coaches who aren’t just former players but were great players is surprising: Tavares, Gary Gait, Paul Gait, Darris Kilgour, Rich Kilgour, Troy Cordingley, Jim Veltman, Tracey Kelusky, Glenn Clark, Blaine Manning, Dan Ladouceur, Dan Stroup, Chris Gill, Pat Coyle, Curt Malawsky, Derek Keenan (short career, but he did win Rookie of the Year), Kaleb Toth, Jimmy Quinlan, and I’ve probably missed some. Pretty much everybody I just listed was at one time one of the best at his position on his team, if not the league.

At one point just a couple of years ago, four of the nine head coaches in the NLL (Darris Kilgour, Cordingley, Keenan, Bob Hamley) were members of the 1993 Bandits, which also included future coaches Tavares, Veltman, and Rich Kilgour. Similarly, current coaches Stroup, Gill, Coyle, Veltman, Clark, Ladouceur, Campbell, and Keenan were all members of the 1999 Rock.

Who will we be talking about as the great NLL coaches in ten years? Colin Doyle? Brodie Merrill? Mark Steenhuis? Dan Dawson?

Left as an exercise for the reader: Why is this situation so different in hockey than in lacrosse?

The NLL Pronunciation Guide 2017

I wrote this article the first time as a bit of a joke, because I got annoyed hearing NLL players’ names being mispronounced by play-by-play guys all the time. Then it kept happening with new players, so I’ve written a new version every year since. I sometimes think maybe the situation is getting better, evidenced by the fact that I didn’t feel compelled to write this article quite as much this year as in previous years. But then the other day I heard the New England announcers say Joey Cupido’s last name as KOO-pid-o and then discuss how it should be pronounced, decide (correctly) on koo-PEE-do, and then proceed to say it wrong the rest of the game. So here we are.

Names are organized alphabetically within teams.


Ryan Benesch – buh-NESH

Bryce Brochu – BRO-shoe

Kevin Brownell – brow-NELL. brow rhymes with “cow”.

Davide DiRuscio – DAY-vid dih-ROOSH-ee-o

Alexander Kedoh Hill – Kedoh sounds like KID-o

Steve Priolo – pree-O-lo

Blaze Riorden – REER-dun

Dhane Smith – DANE

Mark Steenhuis – STAIN-house

Nick Weiss – WEES



ka-TONE-eeHolden Cattoni – ka-TONE-ee

Christian del Bianco – dell bee-AHN-ko

Dane Dobbie – DOUGH-bee. Not like Dobby.

Greg Harnett – har-NET

Jon Harnett – coincidentally, also har-NET

Karsen Leung – lee-UNG

Riley Loewen – LOW-en. LOW is like the word “low”, not rhyming with “cow”.

Tor Reinholdt – RINE-holt

Frank Scigliano – shill-ee-ANN-o. And it’s Frank now, not Frankie.



Keegan Bal – KEE-gan BALL

Alexis Buque – boo-KAY

Callum Crawford – CAL-um. Not CAY-lum.

Joey Cupido – koo-PEE-do. Not KYOO-pid-o or KOO-pid-o

Ilija Gajic – ILL-ee-ya GUY-ch

Jordan Gilles – GILL-ess. Not the same as Brad Gillies on Rochester.

Zach Herreweyers – HAY-wires. I know, right?

Stephen Keogh – KEY-o

Eli McLaughlin – E-lie muh-GLOCK-lin

Nick Ossello – aw-SELL-o

Creighton Reid – CRAY-ton

Jacob Ruest – roo-EH (or if you’re Canadian, it’s roo, eh?)



Mitch Belisle – buh-LYLE

Alex Crepinsek – CREP-in-seck

Kiel Matisz – KYLE muh-TEEZ

Mike Poulin – POO-lin

Randy Staats – STOTS. Rhymes with “slots”. Not STATS.

Leo Stouros – STORE-os


New England

Kevin Crowley – KROW-lee. Not like the bird. KROW rhymes with “cow”.

Ryan Hotaling – ho-TAL-ing

Derek Searle – SERL. Rhymes with pearl.

Jay Thorimbert – THOR-im-burt. I would have guessed THOR-im-bare (and had it that way on this list in previous years) but that’s wrong.



Tyler Ferreira – fur-AIR-uh

Brad Gillies – GILL-ees. Not the same as Jordan Gilles on Colorado.

Graeme Hossack – HOSS-ack. I’m only listing his last name because you all know how to say his first name, right? RIGHT? OK fine, it’s GRAY-um.

Luc Magnan – LUKE MAG-nun. I would have expected man-YON but I’ve never heard it pronounced that way.

Joe Resetarits – res-uh-TARE-its

Matt Vinc – like the name “Vince”. Not VINK.

Cory Vitarelli – vit-uh-REL-ee




Nik Bilic – bee-LEETCH but many people say BIL-itch. Definitely not BIL-ik.

Chris Corbeil – cor-BEEL

Brett Mydske – MID-skee

Kyle Rubisch – ROO-bish

Adrian Sorichetti – sore-i-KET-ee



Kasey Beirnes – BEERns. Not BEER-ness and not BURNS.

Phil Caputo – ka-POO-toe

Latrell Harris – la-TREL. If you’re the ACC announcer, stretch it out so that it takes you 15 seconds to say Latrell.

Rob Hellyer – HELL-yer

Billy Hostrawser – HO-straw-zer

Bradley Kri – KREE

Stephan Leblanc – STEFF-in luh-BLONK. Not steh-FAWN and not luh-BLANK.

Dan Lintner – LINT-ner. There are two N’s in there, not LINT-er or LIT-ner.

Kieran McArdle – KEER-un muh-KAR-dl

Reid Reinholdt – REED RINE-holt

Tom Schreiber – SHRY-ber. I’d be surprised if anyone reading this can’t pronounce this name, considering how often his name has been mentioned this season among NLL folks.



Tye Belanger – buh-LAHN-jay

Brandon Clelland – CLELL-and

Rhys Duch – REES DUTCH

Thomas Hoggarth – HOE-garth

Chris O’Dougherty – O DORT-ee. Or O DOUGH-erty if you say it slowly.

James Rahe – RAY

Logan Schuss – SHUSS (rhymes with BUS). Not SHUSH, SHOOSH, or SHOOS.


Coaches & Execs

Aime Caines – AMY CANES.  Swarm assistant coach.

Ed Comeau – KO-mo. Swarm head coach.

Jamie Dawick – DOW-ick. DOW rhymes with “cow”. Owner & GM of the Rock.

Steve Govett – GUV-it. President & GM of the Mammoth.

Mike Hasen – HAY-zen. Not HAN-sen. Knighthawks head coach.

Tracey Kelusky – kuh-LUSS-key. Not kuh-LOOS-key. Black Wolves assistant coach.

Darris Kilgour – DARE-iss KILL-gore. Not DARE-ee-us. Former Bandits coach/GM.

Curt Malawsky – muh-LAW-skee. Roughnecks head coach.

Nick Sakiewicz – sic-KEV-itch. NLL commish.

Kaleb Toth – KAY-leb TOE-th, not TAW-th. Stealth assistant coach.



Steve Bermel – BERM-ull. Rhymes with “thermal”. Bandits beat writer.

Melissa Dafni – DAF-nee. One of my co-hosts on Addicted to Lacrosse.

Tyler Fitch – TY-ler FITCH. My other co-host on Addicted to Lacrosse.

John Fraser – FRAY-zer. Not FRAY-zher (i.e. not pronounced like the TV show Frasier). Rush play by play dude.

Casey Guerin – GARE-in. Rush broadcaster.

Marisa Ingemi – muh-RISS-a in-JEM-ee. In Lacrosse We Trust writer.

Graeme Perrow – GRAY-um PAIR-o. Yours truly.

Craig Rybczynski – He told me it’s rib-CHIN-skee but he himself frequently says it as “rib-ZIN-skee”. Knighthawks broadcaster.

Six degrees of Bob Watson

I realized the other day that a large number of goaltenders in the NLL have played with Anthony Cosmo. This is not surprising seeing as how he’s been around so long. Then I realized that both he and Mike Poulin are the only goaltenders left in the league who played alongside the great Bob Watson, so it turned into a little game – how many steps is each goalie from Bob Watson?

I’ve gone through the current goaltenders in the league and assigned them a “Whipper number”, defined thusly:

  • Bob Watson has a Whipper number of 0.
  • Anyone else has a Whipper number one greater than the lowest Whipper number of anyone they played with.

GOATSo if you played on a team at the same time as Watson, your Whipper number is 1. If you didn’t but played with someone with a Whipper number of 1, your Whipper number is 2, and so on. If you are familiar the “Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon” game or Erdős numbers in mathematics, it’s the same idea.

I decided to limit it to just goaltenders, so Tyler Richards playing with Colin Doyle who played with Whipper doesn’t count.


Anthony Cosmo played with Whipper on the Rock 2001-2004, and Mike Poulin did from 2007-2008.


Christian Del Bianco played with Mike Poulin in 2016, while Frank Scigliano did from 2012-2016. Davide DiRuscio played with Cosmo in 2016. Brodie MacDonald plays with Poulin in Georgia now (2017). Matt Vinc played with Cosmo in San Jose in 2006. Angus Goodleaf played with Cosmo in Buffalo from 2010-2012. Aaron Bold played with Cosmo on San Jose from 2007-2008, and Brandon Miller did from 2005-2006. Nick Rose played with Cosmo on Boston in 2010-2011 and also played with Poulin in Calgary for part of 2012.


Tyler Carlson has played with Aaron Bold on the Rush since 2015. Tyler Richards played with Bold on the San Jose Stealth in 2009. Evan Kirk played with Brandon Miller on the Wings in 2014. Steve Fryer played with Miller on the Wings in 2012 and the Rock in 2014 and 2016.


Tye Belanger played with Evan Kirk on the Black Wolves in 2015-2016. Doug Jamieson plays with Kirk on the Black Wolves now (2017).


Dillon Ward played with Tye Belanger in Colorado in 2014.


Alexis Buque has played with Ward in Colorado since 2015.

So 11 of the 18 goalies in the league (61%) either played with Whipper or played with someone who did. Like I said, this isn’t really surprising, since Watson has only been retired for 5 seasons and both Cosmo and Poulin have each been around for 10+ years and have played in a number of cities.

Next project: six degrees of Mat Giles. Giles played for 12 different teams in 15 seasons and retired in 2013 so I suspect 80% of the league has a Giles number of at most 2.

NLL Entry Draft 2016

I was able to attend the NLL entry draft once again this year. It’s certainly fun to see all the players, coaches, GMs, media people, and the commissioner in one place, but it’s really cool to watch the players get drafted and see their excited parents, siblings, and girlfriends. I could watch it on the live stream, but it’s fun to be there in person. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to be at the TRAC tomorrow for the awards ceremony.

I have nothing much to say about the players drafted since I’ve never seen any of them play, with the possible exception of any Burrards or Chiefs from the couple of Mann Cup games I went to. This article is just about the draft itself.

NLL Draft

In previous years, Andy McNamara and Stephen Stamp gave their opinions and insight in between picks while Claude Feig briefly interviewed each player chosen. This year, it seemed that Stamper and Andy’s insight was reserved for the webcast and there were no interviews at all. In between picks, it was awfully quiet in the building. But it turned out that it wasn’t supposed to be that quiet – by the end of the first round, they had fixed the audio problems and we could hear Stamp and McNamara. Feig was not around, but Mia Gordon was interviewing many of the players (though we couldn’t hear her). I was sitting directly behind where she was doing the interviews, so I managed to get some screen time as well.

Have to give props to Stephen Stamp: it’s one thing to be critical of players in a blog or podcast or radio interview, but it really takes a pair to list a player’s shortcomings when he’s right there in front of you. “Ah, they just drafted Joe Laxalot and he’s walking to the podium now. Good offensive player, great outside shot, but not very fast and a little weak on the defensive end. I had him going lower in the draft, surprised they picked him.”

I took a couple of pictures with my phone but they didn’t turn out well at all so I stole the draft logo from the NLL site. I just noticed that the CN Tower is a lacrosse stick.

As usual, the TRAC was hopping, with a bunch of chairs on the floor itself and some people in the stands too. By the time the show got underway, most of the chairs were taken so I’m glad I got there early to grab one. And also as usual, Jamie Dawick and the TRAC people put on a professional show with a video board listing all the picks in the current round (though a bigger font might have been nice) and once the audio problems were fixed, the sound was good as well. I obviously didn’t see the web feed but I didn’t see anyone tweeting about problems with it. There were a bunch of wifi networks available, with names like “RochesterColorado” and “GeorgiaBuffalo” and such, as well as three TRAC ones and a couple of “NationalLacrosseLeague” ones. Alas, they were all password protected.

A bunch of Rush players were sitting right next to and in front of me – Matthews, Rubisch, Corbeil, Lafontaine, Knight, Sorichetti, and some other kid. I saw that other kid looking pretty nervous and taking a few deep breaths right before the first pick was made, and then once Ryan Keenan’s name was announced, he stood up and walked to the front. I don’t know if he was nervous because he didn’t know whether he’d be picked first or if he was nervous because he did know. He gave a little thank-you speech, which I think was also new. He’s now at least the second player to be drafted by his father, after Curt Styres picked Brandon a couple of years ago. Josh Sanderson was once taken by his father Terry in an expansion draft, which kind of counts.

OK, one actual lacrosse-related comment. There were a few trades on the night, only one of which included a player and not just picks. The Bandits sent a second round pick to the Knighthawks for Brad Self. Self is up for Transition Player of the Year at Tuesday’s awards, and all he’s worth is a second round pick? I’ve rarely disagreed with Curt Styres on lacrosse moves, but I wouldn’t have made this one. I know nothing about Dan Lomas, who the Knighthawks chose with the traded pick, but if the Knighthawks are lucky, he’ll turn out to be as good as Brad Self is now. Then again Self is 35, so perhaps they figured after a year or two of Lomas learning the ropes, he could be really good for ten years or more, so the long term gain will eventually offset the short term pain. But for a team that missed the playoffs last season and may be without Cody Jamieson for all of next season, adding more short term pain may not have been wise.

Other notes:

  • There was clearly no “what are we going to wear?” email going around the Rush camp. Chris Corbeil and Kyle Rubisch (and Lafontaine, I think) each wore a suit and tie, while Mark Matthews was wearing green denim jeans and a hoodie. Adrian Sorichetti and Curtis Knight split the difference – jackets but no tie.
  • I don’t always pick this up from watching on TV but some lacrosse players are BIG people. Mark Matthews is huge. Jim Veltman isn’t that big but he’s very tall. I was surprised at how big Glenn Clark is. I didn’t see Dan Dawson there this year but I saw him at last year’s draft and he’s massive. You can read “6-foot-5” in however many articles you want but until you’re standing next to someone that big, you don’t really realize just how big that is.
  • Almost didn’t recognize hipster Jimmy Quinlan with the bushy beard. It’s no Iannucci, but getting there.
  • This is going to make no sense to anyone but Steve, but thanks to Steve Bermel for the peanut butter.

The Ville

I went to a party recently hosted by my friends Doug & Ashley at their new house in Orangeville, a small town (population about 28,000) about an hour from my place. Other than stopping at Tim Horton’s a couple of times on my way to or from Collingwood, I had never been to Orangeville. But if you follow lacrosse at all, it’s hard not to know the significance of this town in lacrosse culture. At the party, I estimated that more NLL players come from Orangeville than any other single town, with the possible exception of Peterborough. It turns out that I was mostly right; from the 2016 rosters, Orangeville and Coquitlam BC each had 13 players in the NLL. Peterborough and St. Catharines had 12 each. But Coquitlam, Peterborough, and St. Catharines each have four times the population of Orangeville.

Even much bigger cities like Toronto or Hamilton don’t have the same numbers. Hamilton has almost twenty times the population of Orangeville but only had 7 NLL players in 2016, and that’s if you include Stoney Creek, Dundas, and Millgrove. But bigger cities certainly don’t have the same sense of community – two players may both have been brought up in Toronto but rarely played against each other, where that’s just not possible in smaller towns where everybody knows everybody.

Nick Rose with the NorthmenMany NLL fans know about the Sanderson family’s connection to Orangeville. Indeed, Sanderson’s Source for Sports (formerly owned by Terry Sanderson and now, presumably, by Josh) is right there on Broadway. Six different Sandersons have played in the NLL (Brandon, Josh, Nate, Phil, Ryan, and the late Chris; all but Nate played at the same time in 2002-2003) and two more (Terry and Lindsay) have coached.

But considering the size of the town, the number of lacrosse players that have come from the ‘Ville is astounding. Obviously we have the Sandersons. Pat Coyle. Brodie and Patrick Merrill (though Patrick was born in Montreal). Jon and Greg Harnett. Jason and Jeremy Noble. Glen Bryan. Andrew Suitor. Bruce Codd. Rusty Kruger. Brandon Miller and his late brother Kyle, who never played in the NLL but was a great field lacrosse goaltender. Dillon Ward. Evan and Mike Kirk. And one of Orangeville’s (and particularly the Orangeville Northmen’s) greatest promoters, Nick Rose. I’ve probably missed some.

It’s not just that there are a lot of players from Orangeville, there are a lot of great players. The list above contains three NLL Hall of Famers (Josh, T, and Coyle) and at least one future HoF’er in Brodie Merrill. The 2016 finalists for the NLL Goaltender of the Year award are Rose, Ward, and Evan Kirk who all played for the Northmen.

While driving into the town on my way to the party, I passed Sanderson’s and when I turned off of Broadway, I saw a sign pointing to the Tony Rose Memorial Sports Centre. This is where all the different Northmen teams play and was named for Nick’s father. It turned out that Doug and Ashley can see the “bunny barn” from their deck. I tried to impart on them the significance of this but they’re not huge lacrosse fans (or at least not as big as me) so its meaning was kind of lost. But even though they’ve only lived there for a matter of months, they’ve noticed people playing lacrosse everywhere. It’s a part of Orangeville culture.

Only two other towns in Canada even come close to Orangeville’s production in terms of great lacrosse players per capita. One would be Victoria BC. The population of Victoria is around 78,000, only double that of Orangeville. But Vic had seven NLL players in 2016, and many great players have come out of the BC capital, including the Gaits, Tom Marechek, Ryan Ward, Kevin Alexander, and last year’s Tom Borrelli award winner, Teddy Jenner.

The other is a different entity altogether. The Six Nations reserve in southern Ontario has a population of around 26,000, about the same as Orangeville. Nine players in 2016 called Six Nations home, and many other NLL players in the past have grown up there. The names Bomberry and Powless are all over the history of the NLL and lacrosse in general, and there’s a Bomberry and two Powlesses playing now. I’m guessing you’ll hear those names as well as names like Jamieson and Staats in the NLL many times in the coming years.

I called it a “different entity” because as much as lacrosse is a part of Orangeville culture, it’s even more ingrained in Native culture. It’s not just a fun game to play to pass the time or a game you play because everyone else plays it, it’s part of their belief system. But that’s an article for another day.